Comments on: Music Preview: MULE fundraiser with punk from the other Manchester http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester News with a Kick Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:42:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jo http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester/comment-page-1#comment-1082 Jo Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:55:36 +0000 http://manchestermule.com/?p=1876#comment-1082 At a broader level there's a big need to have a discussion about how a politics of representation intersects with a politics that critiques capitalism. The box ticking or Benneton approaches, as people have pointed out, offer no solution to understanding how to develop inclusive political spaces, yet that doesn't mean it should be just swept under the carpet. I do find it interesting that the target of the discussion is this particular event, since as a queer woman who has attended a fair few hardcore gigs including this one, I actually find them very inclusive spaces. Just because it's usually a bunch of white men doesn't translate to it being sexist and racist, in fact it seems to me that hardcore can be a space for white men to disrupt dominant constructions of white maleness, and surely that's an important part of an anti-racist feminist project? At a broader level there’s a big need to have a discussion about how a politics of representation intersects with a politics that critiques capitalism. The box ticking or Benneton approaches, as people have pointed out, offer no solution to understanding how to develop inclusive political spaces, yet that doesn’t mean it should be just swept under the carpet.
I do find it interesting that the target of the discussion is this particular event, since as a queer woman who has attended a fair few hardcore gigs including this one, I actually find them very inclusive spaces. Just because it’s usually a bunch of white men doesn’t translate to it being sexist and racist, in fact it seems to me that hardcore can be a space for white men to disrupt dominant constructions of white maleness, and surely that’s an important part of an anti-racist feminist project?

]]> By: A http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester/comment-page-1#comment-1073 A Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:58:23 +0000 http://manchestermule.com/?p=1876#comment-1073 Not only was there a good turn out, the crowd was also quite a diverse one. And from all I could tell, bands members were a rather diverse group, too. After all, there are huge differences between white males -- in terms of class, ethnicity, sexual orientation and numerous "other issues". Not only was there a good turn out, the crowd was also quite a diverse one. And from all I could tell, bands members were a rather diverse group, too. After all, there are huge differences between white males — in terms of class, ethnicity, sexual orientation and numerous “other issues”.

]]> By: Tommo http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester/comment-page-1#comment-1067 Tommo Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:47:23 +0000 http://manchestermule.com/?p=1876#comment-1067 As a co-organiser of this event I feel like I should respond to some of the comments Kim has made. I should firstly point out that this wasnt obstensibly a gig organised by the Mule but rather an EP launch party with a portion of the takings going to the collective. So criticism shouldnt really be levelled at them but to us. Secondly the line-up was chosen entirely on the basis of how well the bands sounded together. I cant imagine many bands being pleased to learn they were included on a bill because they represented a demographic. The fact is that bands playing this style of music are mostly white males. If we had gone for a different mix of bands the line up may well have been more representative but that wasnt our main objective. The punk and hardcore scenes have massive problems with inclusivness and have done historically. I totally agree that this is something that should be discussed and confronted, and to an extent the DIY does this (although admittedly not much seems to change). I would challenge your inference that a DIY gig involving only white males cant be political, or that we should question its validity as a political act. Thanks a lot to everyone who came Thursday night, the bands were great and there was a good turnout. Cheers As a co-organiser of this event I feel like I should respond to some of the comments Kim has made.
I should firstly point out that this wasnt obstensibly a gig organised by the Mule but rather an EP launch party with a portion of the takings going to the collective. So criticism shouldnt really be levelled at them but to us.
Secondly the line-up was chosen entirely on the basis of how well the bands sounded together. I cant imagine many bands being pleased to learn they were included on a bill because they represented a demographic. The fact is that bands playing this style of music are mostly white males. If we had gone for a different mix of bands the line up may well have been more representative but that wasnt our main objective.
The punk and hardcore scenes have massive problems with inclusivness and have done historically. I totally agree that this is something that should be discussed and confronted, and to an extent the DIY does this (although admittedly not much seems to change).
I would challenge your inference that a DIY gig involving only white males cant be political, or that we should question its validity as a political act.
Thanks a lot to everyone who came Thursday night, the bands were great and there was a good turnout. Cheers

]]> By: michaelp http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester/comment-page-1#comment-1066 michaelp Sun, 17 Jan 2010 02:50:30 +0000 http://manchestermule.com/?p=1876#comment-1066 as a mule volunteer i put as much time as i can into the publication and its events. at the core of our convictions - the driving force of the organisation - is inclusivity, social justice, and providing a progressive platform for those who would otherwise be ignored. on my part i apologise if we fail in this endeavour. however, as somebody who is in employment outside of the publication, there is only so much time possible to dedicate. this means that (unfortunately) we rely largely on the people we know, and the links we have with varying organisations to put on events. i sincerely wish i could search manchester looking for writers, designers, contributors and bands from all different backgrounds but sadly it simply isn´t possible. but we do our best. and we always welcome contributions from people who wish to get involved. for me it is unfair to overly criticise a penniless, volunteer-run organisation which does the best it can with limited resources. that said, we want your feedback and thoughts on how we can improve our content and modus operandi. and i would reiterate, that if you want to get involved, please contact us – after all, it is only through the efforts of volunteers who care about it that we exist at all. best wishes. MP as a mule volunteer i put as much time as i can into the publication and its events. at the core of our convictions – the driving force of the organisation – is inclusivity, social justice, and providing a progressive platform for those who would otherwise be ignored. on my part i apologise if we fail in this endeavour. however, as somebody who is in employment outside of the publication, there is only so much time possible to dedicate. this means that (unfortunately) we rely largely on the people we know, and the links we have with varying organisations to put on events. i sincerely wish i could search manchester looking for writers, designers, contributors and bands from all different backgrounds but sadly it simply isn´t possible. but we do our best. and we always welcome contributions from people who wish to get involved. for me it is unfair to overly criticise a penniless, volunteer-run organisation which does the best it can with limited resources. that said, we want your feedback and thoughts on how we can improve our content and modus operandi. and i would reiterate, that if you want to get involved, please contact us – after all, it is only through the efforts of volunteers who care about it that we exist at all. best wishes. MP

]]> By: Jen http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester/comment-page-1#comment-1065 Jen Sun, 17 Jan 2010 01:13:00 +0000 http://manchestermule.com/?p=1876#comment-1065 ps, I meant to be funny and make a point, not to belittle so apologies for that. Plus I agree that your original comment was not very offensive (although a little harsh and inaccurate) x ps, I meant to be funny and make a point, not to belittle so apologies for that. Plus I agree that your original comment was not very offensive (although a little harsh and inaccurate) x

]]> By: Jen http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester/comment-page-1#comment-1064 Jen Sun, 17 Jan 2010 00:56:27 +0000 http://manchestermule.com/?p=1876#comment-1064 no worries kim, think you got me and mule wrong and i'm happy to leave it at that or chat about it sometime if you like? message me x no worries kim, think you got me and mule wrong and i’m happy to leave it at that or chat about it sometime if you like? message me x

]]> By: Kim http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester/comment-page-1#comment-1063 Kim Sat, 16 Jan 2010 22:04:32 +0000 http://manchestermule.com/?p=1876#comment-1063 @jen: why do you need to belittle others to make your point? just because demographics are clearly not important to you doesn't mean it's "silly". And given people won't accept that sexism or racism exists any other way, what do you suggest *but* stats? This has got hopelessly sidetracked. The point I was originally trying to make was "my, the mule sure seems to support a disproportionate number of white men". It was a very simple critique that people seem incredibly defensive of. I actually can't believe this is still a controversial thing to say! @jen: that's interesting, but still a- this is an album launch, it's hardly altruistic (i do not have a problem with this just saying its a stretch calling it a benefit) b - it's interesting the groups that feel they are a part of mule are, you guessed it... Yet again - I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH THIS SPECIFIC LINEUP OR ALL WHITE MALE GIGS IN GENERAL! I just thought that the white, male centric nature of the entire DIY scene was worth mentioning when it tried to pass itself off as political. This was just an unfortunate scapegoat. @jen: why do you need to belittle others to make your point? just because demographics are clearly not important to you doesn’t mean it’s “silly”. And given people won’t accept that sexism or racism exists any other way, what do you suggest *but* stats?

This has got hopelessly sidetracked. The point I was originally trying to make was “my, the mule sure seems to support a disproportionate number of white men”. It was a very simple critique that people seem incredibly defensive of. I actually can’t believe this is still a controversial thing to say!

@jen: that’s interesting, but still

a- this is an album launch, it’s hardly altruistic (i do not have a problem with this just saying its a stretch calling it a benefit)
b – it’s interesting the groups that feel they are a part of mule are, you guessed it…

Yet again – I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH THIS SPECIFIC LINEUP OR ALL WHITE MALE GIGS IN GENERAL! I just thought that the white, male centric nature of the entire DIY scene was worth mentioning when it tried to pass itself off as political. This was just an unfortunate scapegoat.

]]> By: M http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester/comment-page-1#comment-1062 M Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:10:30 +0000 http://manchestermule.com/?p=1876#comment-1062 @ Nicky: "white men cannot, by some definitions, be discriminated against for being white or male — they are the group that holds the power". Class? @ Nicky: “white men cannot, by some definitions, be discriminated against for being white or male — they are the group that holds the power”. Class?

]]> By: Jen http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester/comment-page-1#comment-1061 Jen Sat, 16 Jan 2010 11:48:01 +0000 http://manchestermule.com/?p=1876#comment-1061 Off the record as a mule volunteer I would say that mule doesn't organise gigs, different groups offer them to us fairly frequently which we are very grateful for. Next time someone calls me to offer a gig there is no chance i'm going to ask them what their skin colour is, or what their genitals look like. I think it's a shame that what is a serious issue has been made to look silly here by wild finger pointing and invented stats. Peace x Off the record as a mule volunteer I would say that mule doesn’t organise gigs, different groups offer them to us fairly frequently which we are very grateful for. Next time someone calls me to offer a gig there is no chance i’m going to ask them what their skin colour is, or what their genitals look like. I think it’s a shame that what is a serious issue has been made to look silly here by wild finger pointing and invented stats. Peace x

]]> By: Nicky http://manchestermule.com/article/hammers-war-coma-and-the-autonomads-sounds-from-the-other-manchester/comment-page-1#comment-1060 Nicky Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:54:49 +0000 http://manchestermule.com/?p=1876#comment-1060 @John: the excuse that "that's just how it is" is simply not good enough -- that's just like saying that men earn more than women (in general) and that's just how it is. All this is doing is maintaining the status quo which is not helping anyone but those with the power. @LeFkY: Talking and pointing things out IS "doing something," it is highlighting stuff that gets taken for granted and questions what is thought of as "normal." Being open-minded is also about engaging in conversation and not just dismissing a point because it might seem trivial or outside your comfort zone. @Eric: Your attitude to racism and sexism seems back-to-front: white men cannot, by some definitions, be discriminated against for being white or male -- they are the group that holds the power. I should point out that I do NOT want to engage in a discussion about this at this point; it is the duty of each and everyone of us in a privileged group to learn more about privilege and what (potentially) to do about it (this includes me). @John: the excuse that “that’s just how it is” is simply not good enough — that’s just like saying that men earn more than women (in general) and that’s just how it is. All this is doing is maintaining the status quo which is not helping anyone but those with the power.
@LeFkY: Talking and pointing things out IS “doing something,” it is highlighting stuff that gets taken for granted and questions what is thought of as “normal.” Being open-minded is also about engaging in conversation and not just dismissing a point because it might seem trivial or outside your comfort zone.
@Eric: Your attitude to racism and sexism seems back-to-front: white men cannot, by some definitions, be discriminated against for being white or male — they are the group that holds the power. I should point out that I do NOT want to engage in a discussion about this at this point; it is the duty of each and everyone of us in a privileged group to learn more about privilege and what (potentially) to do about it (this includes me).

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